Tuning In the Right Frequency

[00:00:00] It is Monday, May 13th, today a special deep dive marketing science episode.

[00:00:08] In the last couple of weeks, many people who are listening to us on the free podcast feed

[00:00:12] reached out to us.

[00:00:14] They said, enough with the ads already.

[00:00:16] They're the same ones over and over again.

[00:00:19] Just stop.

[00:00:20] We get it.

[00:00:22] But are they actually doing our brand harm?

[00:00:26] What about for our most loyal listeners?

[00:00:29] Are the ads ever too repetitive for them?

[00:00:33] For an answer to that question, we called up Nelson Amaral.

[00:00:35] He is an associate professor of marketing at Ontario Tech University.

[00:00:39] He is co-author of the recently published scientific study called Battle of the Brand.

[00:00:44] Does brand attachment inoculate against the negative effects of ad repetition?

[00:00:49] Dr. Amaral joins me from his office in Toronto.

[00:00:52] Hello.

[00:00:53] Hi, how are you Tod?

[00:00:54] I'm well.

[00:00:55] So how badly did we mess up our brand with these repetitive ads?

[00:01:00] So it depends on who it is that's listening to the ads.

[00:01:04] The reason this project was born in the first place was a personal experience.

[00:01:08] I was a PhD student, which meant I was really, really poor, but I had kids and I knew that

[00:01:14] what we were going to do to treat ourselves and our kids who were also put through

[00:01:18] the wringer by having their dad in a PhD program was we were going to take them

[00:01:22] to Disney World, which is like the classic thing you do when you accomplish something,

[00:01:26] right?

[00:01:27] I think I must have been searching for Disney World and there must have been cookies on

[00:01:31] my laptop for Disney World because this is in Minneapolis.

[00:01:34] I did my PhD at the University of Minnesota.

[00:01:37] And the reason I'm saying that is because I was watching Hulu, which Canadians may

[00:01:40] not be that familiar with, but it's a streaming service in the U.S.

[00:01:43] I think it still it was the biggest before Netflix and Disney took over.

[00:01:48] But people still use Hulu.

[00:01:50] So the way the Hulu model works is that you can watch all kinds of programs for

[00:01:54] free as long as you agree to be interrupted, which is what Amazon Prime is now doing to

[00:01:59] people. And I think it's the trend that they're all moving in this direction.

[00:02:03] So what I noticed was I saw the same ad during every commercial break.

[00:02:08] It was for Disney World in Florida.

[00:02:11] And what struck me was why am I not getting annoyed by this or am I not getting

[00:02:16] more annoyed by this?

[00:02:18] That was the question.

[00:02:20] And that's what started this research.

[00:02:22] Turns out the answer to that question is, well, every time I saw the ad, it made me

[00:02:26] feel good because it reminded me I'm going to take my kids to Disney World.

[00:02:32] It's a year or two away.

[00:02:33] But every time I saw that ad, this connection that I had with that brand

[00:02:38] because of the anticipated joy of that trip, it helped me overcome the negative

[00:02:44] thoughts, which I did have of why do they keep showing me this ad over and

[00:02:49] over again? This is really supposed to be annoying.

[00:02:51] But for some reason, it's not as annoying as it should be.

[00:02:55] So that's the whole reason that this this project started.

[00:02:58] It was that personal experience.

[00:03:00] And tell me what you discovered from your research.

[00:03:02] It was, I guess, the closer a connection someone has to the brand, the more

[00:03:06] tolerant they are of repetitive ads.

[00:03:10] Yeah, it's a relationship that you have with the brand.

[00:03:13] So what we found was.

[00:03:16] It's personal. I think that's the best way to put it.

[00:03:19] There's been a lot of research that's looked at the symbolic value of brands.

[00:03:23] Everybody in marketing is aware of the power that brands have

[00:03:27] because of the the social symbolic power they have. Right.

[00:03:30] Like I wear Nike because then people are going to think, you know, I'm athletic

[00:03:36] or I use a Mac because then people are going to think that

[00:03:38] I've got a little bit of extra money and I like to do creative work.

[00:03:42] So everybody knows about that part of branding.

[00:03:45] What I was interested in was my personal experience with Disney.

[00:03:49] So what if you're a big fan of BMW,

[00:03:53] which is the example I start with in my paper,

[00:03:55] and you see the same BMW over and over again or better yet,

[00:03:59] you may have listeners who actually search out ads on YouTube

[00:04:03] for some of their favorite brands.

[00:04:04] So not only are they having companies show them these brands

[00:04:08] over and over again, but they're actually going out and searching.

[00:04:12] You know, it's kind of weird like we all hate being exposed

[00:04:15] to the same ads over and over.

[00:04:16] But there are people who actually go on YouTube to look at ads.

[00:04:19] For these companies, they love these brands they love. Right.

[00:04:21] Those are the people that I was interested in in studying these

[00:04:26] people with a really strong attachment to a brand.

[00:04:29] Could you expose those people to a brand

[00:04:33] advertisement over and over and over, even if it's the same ad

[00:04:38] and not see what has been well established by researchers

[00:04:42] and practitioners over about 40 or 50 years.

[00:04:45] This phenomenon called brand wear out,

[00:04:48] which is that when you see a brand advertised about

[00:04:53] between two and five times,

[00:04:55] there's initially an improvement in your attachment to the brand

[00:04:59] and your perception of the products that it makes in the services

[00:05:02] because you're learning about it and you're becoming a little more interested in it.

[00:05:06] But then after a while, you're like, OK, I get it.

[00:05:08] I don't want to see this again.

[00:05:10] And that's where you have wear out.

[00:05:11] So it depends on the ad.

[00:05:12] You know, if they're funny, you can put up with it for longer.

[00:05:16] If they're emotional, maybe you can put up with it longer.

[00:05:18] Brands that are really create really dry ads.

[00:05:21] You're going to have wear out after two times.

[00:05:24] So there are other factors that that play into how long it takes

[00:05:27] before you start getting annoyed.

[00:05:29] But eventually everybody gets annoyed.

[00:05:31] I want the number, though, because there's been other research, of course,

[00:05:33] on ad frequency.

[00:05:35] Some studies have found that high frequency helps people remember the message.

[00:05:38] There's some research that has found that repetition can make a claim more believable.

[00:05:43] But, you know, after a while, those become diminishing returns.

[00:05:46] And then they turn somewhat against the I guess what I'm asking is,

[00:05:51] what is the number?

[00:05:52] Like how for a super fan or the term used to someone with high

[00:05:56] personal brand attachment? Yeah.

[00:05:58] How many ads can I get away with in repetition?

[00:06:01] And when I'm looking at my meta ads manager and it's reporting

[00:06:04] a frequency number of 11 over the course of, I don't know, seven days,

[00:06:08] is that too many?

[00:06:09] Give me the magic number.

[00:06:11] Ah, I can't.

[00:06:14] In true NBA fashion, the answer is it depends.

[00:06:18] So, you know, I had said there's all these other factors like

[00:06:21] is the ad funny? Is it entertaining?

[00:06:23] Does it have star power?

[00:06:25] Is it visually appealing?

[00:06:27] Does it pull your hard strings?

[00:06:29] All of these things are going to affect how long it takes

[00:06:32] before you start to feel annoyed by the ad.

[00:06:35] So there's no real answer to that question.

[00:06:37] Let's do it by relative, then.

[00:06:39] Do you have a and you may not have measured this in particular.

[00:06:41] If so, I didn't see it in the study, but let's talk about a relative number.

[00:06:44] If if a if an average consumer gets fed up after five ads,

[00:06:52] how many more as a relative factor does your gut tell you

[00:06:58] that super fans, is it they can put up with two times more,

[00:07:02] five times more?

[00:07:03] OK, so that's a good question.

[00:07:05] And the answer is it still depends because it depends on how connected

[00:07:08] I am to that brand and it depends on why I have that personal attachment.

[00:07:11] Like in my case, I literally saw the Disney ad.

[00:07:15] I wouldn't be exaggerating if I said a hundred times

[00:07:18] over a period of four months.

[00:07:21] You know, because, you know, you're watching Hulu like four hours a day

[00:07:25] while you're crunching some numbers, it doesn't take a lot of cognitive effort

[00:07:30] for you to crunch numbers sometimes.

[00:07:32] You're just like cleaning data, which is a big part of my job

[00:07:35] as a researcher and that kind of mindless effort.

[00:07:39] You get really bored.

[00:07:40] So you have stuff, you know, in the background that you're watching.

[00:07:43] And in the US it was Hulu.

[00:07:45] So I was watching Hulu, you know, three, four hours a day some days.

[00:07:48] And every 10 minutes there was an ad and every ad break.

[00:07:52] There's two ads.

[00:07:53] And one of those two was always Disney.

[00:07:55] So it really was close to 100 times.

[00:07:58] And I got annoyed of the song, but I didn't get annoyed of the ad.

[00:08:03] Like, even after a hundred times, there was a part of me that was like,

[00:08:08] I'm going to Disney World.

[00:08:09] So it really depends on why you're attached in our research.

[00:08:13] The the furthest we went was 10 times.

[00:08:16] So the most we showed anybody an ad was 10 times.

[00:08:19] So really, we're kind of limiting ourselves to streaming

[00:08:26] advertisements in the digital world.

[00:08:29] You know, you go on Facebook and you're going to see,

[00:08:32] you know, if you're on Facebook for two hours a day, you're going to see the same

[00:08:35] like I just bought a car.

[00:08:36] And so you're going to see the same truck ad every time you open Facebook

[00:08:40] and every third or fourth scroll, there's an ad for a truck.

[00:08:44] So in that case, you're talking about maybe a thousand times

[00:08:46] you'll see the same ad in a month instead of 10 or 20 or 30.

[00:08:51] So our research really is limited, I think,

[00:08:55] to a context that's not digital, because in the digital space,

[00:08:58] we're talking about hundreds or thousands of repetitions, not a dozen.

[00:09:02] Do you know of any research that has looked into the effect of high frequency

[00:09:07] when a campaign is used over multiple channels?

[00:09:09] You know, the same message in a Facebook ad as a Hulu ad,

[00:09:13] as an email marketing campaign.

[00:09:14] Are you aware of any research that looks into that?

[00:09:16] No, no. It'd be interesting to know, because that's, you know,

[00:09:19] that is certainly one of the big things that we're emerging into

[00:09:22] in this sort of brave new world of of an increased reliance on first party

[00:09:27] data is we are trying to use as many of these sort of omni channel

[00:09:32] places as we can. Yeah, it's funny that Omni is getting so much attention.

[00:09:35] But in the world of marketing, most of that attention is still on distribution.

[00:09:41] There's not very much on marketing messages and the way they're

[00:09:46] you know, we know some basic things that we all learn,

[00:09:49] you know, in our first branding course, which is, you know,

[00:09:51] provide a consistent method, use a consistent voice,

[00:09:54] the kinds of things that everybody who works in marketing knows.

[00:09:56] What we don't know is the question you're asking.

[00:09:59] What happens if we show a slightly different ad?

[00:10:03] You know, we tweak it a little bit, but we show it 50 times on Facebook

[00:10:06] and then you see it 15 times on Tick Tock.

[00:10:08] And then you're watching Amazon Prime and it comes up three times,

[00:10:12] you know, in your two hour movie.

[00:10:14] What's that experience like if you then ask that customer

[00:10:18] for their opinion of that product or that service?

[00:10:20] We have no idea what effect that's having.

[00:10:24] And we don't know if which I think is part of your question, too,

[00:10:27] which of them is more annoying being interrupted while I watch Amazon

[00:10:30] or having to see the same damn truck ad on Facebook every,

[00:10:34] you know, every 30 seconds while I'm scrolling.

[00:10:37] I enjoyed reading about one of your experiments.

[00:10:39] You basically sat students down in front of a TV

[00:10:42] and expose them to a number of brand messages.

[00:10:44] But in order to not tip them off as to what you were actually measuring,

[00:10:50] there was some subterfuge involved.

[00:10:52] You had to use a cover story.

[00:10:54] Yeah, you have to, because otherwise

[00:10:57] you'll end up with something in science.

[00:10:58] It's called a demand effect.

[00:11:00] If people start figuring out what it is that you're trying to do,

[00:11:03] it can influence the way they answer your questions.

[00:11:05] So you've got people who want to be nice.

[00:11:07] And so they're going to try to guess what you're trying to figure out.

[00:11:11] And they're going to try to please you by giving you answers

[00:11:14] that they think you want to hear.

[00:11:15] What was your cover story?

[00:11:16] So the cover story was that we were interested

[00:11:21] in the viewing experience of a television program

[00:11:25] because other streaming services were going to be sort of copying

[00:11:30] what Hulu does, which is funny, because when we ran this,

[00:11:32] we had no idea Netflix and Amazon and you know that they were going

[00:11:35] to start showing ads.

[00:11:37] So that was the cover story.

[00:11:38] We didn't.

[00:11:39] We made them think we were interested in their opinions of it was

[00:11:44] Seinfeld episode, I think, or Friends.

[00:11:47] Can't remember what the show was.

[00:11:48] But it was, you know, one of those really popular sitcoms.

[00:11:51] And we told them that's what we were interested in.

[00:11:52] Don't worry about the ads.

[00:11:53] They don't really have much to do with it.

[00:11:55] They're just they're the interruption.

[00:11:57] Well, we want to know what you think of the show.

[00:11:58] And then at the end, we're like, by the way, you know,

[00:12:00] we do want to know what you thought of the ads.

[00:12:02] You may have seen the same ad five times because we used cookies

[00:12:05] to figure out all, you know, none of it is true.

[00:12:07] But you have to provide this cover story in order to get good data.

[00:12:10] These are students, of course, they get class credit

[00:12:12] for participating in these studies.

[00:12:13] I would imagine that by fourth year past graduation,

[00:12:16] they're kind of on to these things.

[00:12:18] You would think so.

[00:12:19] But the nice thing is that at a business school,

[00:12:21] these kids are doing studies for human resource,

[00:12:25] profs, operations, marketing, strategy, psychology.

[00:12:30] So they never get to see a pattern because they're doing research.

[00:12:34] You know, some of them like some of those research is really fun.

[00:12:36] Mine is kind of boring.

[00:12:38] But I've heard of professors who have them actually like play video games.

[00:12:41] And then, you know, they're gauging like they're using eye

[00:12:43] tracking data to figure out what part of the game they're looking at

[00:12:46] to see if they saw the Coke billboard

[00:12:48] while they're driving by it on a video gamer.

[00:12:50] So I'm kind of boring.

[00:12:52] You know, you're just sitting there watching 20 minutes of Seinfeld.

[00:12:55] But they're all so different that, yeah, these the kids never really figure

[00:12:58] out what's going on. And I don't think they care.

[00:13:02] They're like, just give me my credit.

[00:13:03] I'm just going to finish and answer your questions and go.

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[00:14:37] One of the more interesting parts of the study I found was that

[00:14:40] your paper found, your research found that repeated ad exposures

[00:14:44] are sometimes perceived by consumers as a threat to their identity.

[00:14:50] Walk me through what's happening in the brain there.

[00:14:52] So that's actually that's the key finding from this paper.

[00:14:58] Because like I said at the beginning, most of the research

[00:15:01] that we have in marketing is focused on the social

[00:15:08] symbolic power of brands.

[00:15:09] So a brand becomes something because we know as a group

[00:15:14] that it it means this or it means that or it symbolizes this.

[00:15:19] Right. So what this research was was looking at was again,

[00:15:23] going back to my own personal story with Disney,

[00:15:26] it wasn't about what I thought people who go to Disney are like.

[00:15:29] That had nothing to do with why the ad wasn't annoying me.

[00:15:32] It wasn't because if I go to Disney, people are going to think

[00:15:35] I'm this kind of dad. It wasn't that it was that every time

[00:15:38] I saw the ad, I was reminded of a personal feeling and experience

[00:15:42] that I might have in the future with my kids.

[00:15:46] So that has nothing to do with an outside group or a reference group

[00:15:50] that I'm comparing myself to. It's completely individual.

[00:15:54] So when we when we first thought about our hypothesis,

[00:15:59] so the predictions we were going to make by this research,

[00:16:01] it was really based on my personal experience.

[00:16:03] And so that's what made this special.

[00:16:07] That's what made this research different.

[00:16:09] Essentially, what we ended up finding was

[00:16:12] if you show people that have a really strong connection

[00:16:15] or attachment is the word that we used in our research

[00:16:18] to a particular brand.

[00:16:19] You show them that ad over and over again.

[00:16:21] They are going to have negative thoughts about the ad.

[00:16:24] You know, like I had said with the Disney experience,

[00:16:26] that jingle was driving me crazy because you're hearing

[00:16:29] the same like song over and over that part I didn't like.

[00:16:32] But the ad overall just didn't annoy me

[00:16:35] because it kept reminding me of this future experience

[00:16:37] that I would have.

[00:16:38] So what we did is we measured people's thoughts.

[00:16:44] Now, you can't go into somebody's brain.

[00:16:46] So the best we have is write them down.

[00:16:48] So we said after they'd seen the ad five times or three times

[00:16:52] or whatever they were assigned to randomly,

[00:16:56] the number of ads they were randomly assigned to see.

[00:16:58] We said, we need you to write down all the thoughts that came to mind.

[00:17:02] And then we had research assistants

[00:17:05] decide whether the thoughts were positive or negative,

[00:17:07] and we just added them up.

[00:17:09] And what we found was people who had this really strong

[00:17:12] attachment to a brand like Starbucks or Apple,

[00:17:15] in the case of our research,

[00:17:17] they had the same number of negative thoughts as people who didn't.

[00:17:22] So you still get annoyed.

[00:17:25] What was really cool, though,

[00:17:27] was that they generated way more positive thoughts.

[00:17:30] So they're protecting this attachment that they have to the brand

[00:17:35] by unconsciously creating, generating more positive thoughts

[00:17:40] about the ad and about the brand to protect that part of themselves.

[00:17:44] Starbucks is an important part of who I am.

[00:17:47] I go to Starbucks every day.

[00:17:49] I'm not a Timmy's drinker. I'm a Starbucks drinker.

[00:17:51] I'm not a Seattle's best drinker.

[00:17:53] I'm a Starbucks drinker. It's like a badge, right?

[00:17:56] It's that kind of person. I'm a Starbucks person.

[00:17:59] So if I see Starbucks advertised over and over and over

[00:18:02] and I start to get a little bit annoyed, well,

[00:18:05] I can't I can't be that annoyed with it.

[00:18:07] It's who I am. It's part of me.

[00:18:09] So you generate more positive thoughts.

[00:18:11] So you start feeling a little bit of negativity

[00:18:14] and your brain sort of sets off this warning.

[00:18:17] And we have other research that didn't make it into the paper,

[00:18:20] like eye tracking, which measures pupil dilation.

[00:18:23] And what that does is it measures

[00:18:26] how aroused you are.

[00:18:27] And it didn't make it into the paper.

[00:18:29] Maybe it's a separate paper.

[00:18:30] But we found data that with the eye tracking,

[00:18:33] that sort of was consistent with the number of positive thoughts

[00:18:37] people were having, which was when they started to get more aroused,

[00:18:41] like they started to feel something.

[00:18:43] That's when they generated more positive thoughts.

[00:18:46] So they're protecting themselves.

[00:18:48] You know, not just this is going to sound so predatory,

[00:18:53] but is there something that we marketers can do,

[00:18:56] maybe in the copywriting to exploit?

[00:19:01] Is that the right word?

[00:19:02] This feeling of brand identity?

[00:19:04] Can we write an ad in a way to evoke these feelings

[00:19:09] of personal brand identity connected to the brand itself,

[00:19:14] you know, in a way to

[00:19:18] have an easy path to increase frequencies?

[00:19:21] Am I a horrible person?

[00:19:23] No, you're just saying out loud what every marketer wants to do.

[00:19:27] It's what we you know, the goal is to inform and persuade, not just inform.

[00:19:32] So yes, the answer is yes, absolutely.

[00:19:35] And some ads already do it really effectively.

[00:19:39] The key is to tap into something that's really personal

[00:19:42] so that that person feels a personal connection at the individual level

[00:19:47] to a brand. So, you know, examples of this, the best are always the Super Bowl ads.

[00:19:52] There's a company that nobody heard about

[00:19:54] that suddenly everybody was talking about called 84 Lumber.

[00:19:57] Never heard about it until the Super Bowl. Why?

[00:20:00] Because 84 Lumber made this really controversial ad

[00:20:04] that basically, you know, you know,

[00:20:06] flipped Donald Trump the bird on his immigration policy

[00:20:10] and said here is why we want immigrants in America.

[00:20:15] And it was so controversial that Fox wouldn't air it during the Super Bowl

[00:20:20] without major revisions.

[00:20:22] So what they did is they revised the ad.

[00:20:24] And then at the end of the ad, they were like to see the whole ad.

[00:20:26] Go here. And it gave you a link on YouTube.

[00:20:30] So they've done it. We saw what happened with Bud Light.

[00:20:34] With the campaign that they had that turned into a huge backlash.

[00:20:39] So that's the risk, right?

[00:20:40] You take a stand, you create an ad that creates that personal connection.

[00:20:44] But you're always going to you're going to pick a side in a lot of cases.

[00:20:49] Yeah. So you're you're taking a risk.

[00:20:52] So if you're going to do this, if you're going to create

[00:20:54] this personal connection so you can overcome these negative effects

[00:20:57] and wear out, know your customer.

[00:21:00] I mean, it seems so basic, right?

[00:21:02] But know your customer, because whatever it is

[00:21:04] that you're trying to create an attachment to, make sure that the base

[00:21:08] that you're getting most of your revenue from,

[00:21:12] that they believe the same thing.

[00:21:13] You believe that they have the same values.

[00:21:16] What surprised you the most about your findings?

[00:21:19] Actually, the thing that surprised me the most

[00:21:21] is related to what we were just talking about.

[00:21:23] When my co-author Joseph Redden and I

[00:21:27] were were first working on this, he suggested, you know,

[00:21:31] this is a slam dunk if we can show

[00:21:35] that we can manipulate people's attachment to a brand and still show this

[00:21:42] this sort of mitigation of wear out.

[00:21:45] And and I was very skeptical that we could pull it off.

[00:21:50] And it worked on the first try.

[00:21:52] The second study, what we did is we had people write down,

[00:21:55] we randomly assign them to one of two conditions.

[00:21:57] That's what in experiments you call a condition where

[00:22:00] you're randomly told to do one thing or another.

[00:22:02] You know, in medicine, I'm going to give you a sugar pill.

[00:22:04] I'm going to give you the medicine.

[00:22:05] You don't know which is which. Neither do the doctors.

[00:22:07] So basically, that's what we did.

[00:22:09] We randomly assigned people to one of two conditions.

[00:22:11] In one condition, we said,

[00:22:14] we want you to write down, you know, what it's like when you go to Starbucks.

[00:22:18] Just a general whatever. Nothing really.

[00:22:21] Just a it's called the control because we're not trying to get them

[00:22:24] to do anything or write anything special.

[00:22:26] But the other half of the people, we said,

[00:22:28] we need you to write down the ways in which you feel a close

[00:22:32] personal connection to the Starbucks brand.

[00:22:35] And and then we forced them to write for one minute.

[00:22:38] So really, you know, most people wrote almost a full paragraph.

[00:22:41] These students and it worked.

[00:22:44] So regardless of whether you came into the experiment,

[00:22:48] having a personal connection to Starbucks or not,

[00:22:51] making you remind yourself

[00:22:55] of how you might have a personal connection to Starbucks.

[00:22:58] Was enough to then show those people the Starbucks ad five times

[00:23:03] and see a significant difference in how much you like the ad

[00:23:06] and how much you like the brand compared to the people

[00:23:09] who just kind of wrote about Starbucks.

[00:23:12] You talk about like, you know, sneaky marketing.

[00:23:15] That's kind of scary that we can actually make you feel more attached

[00:23:20] just by asking you to think about how you're more attached.

[00:23:23] Yeah, it is super interesting research.

[00:23:25] I'm really glad you could share it with us.

[00:23:27] Thank you for your time.

[00:23:28] Yeah, thank you very much for having me.

[00:23:29] This is fun.

[00:23:30] Nelson Amaral is an associate professor of marketing at Ontario Tech University.

[00:23:35] This paper was published in the Journal of Advertising.

[00:23:38] It's called Battle of the Brand.

[00:23:40] Does brand attachment inoculate against the negative effects of ad repetition?

[00:23:45] We have a link to the study in today's show notes.

[00:23:48] I'm Todd Mapp and thanks for listening back tomorrow with the day's news.

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